New Orleans Review
Was there a certain time or moment in your life that really sparked your interest in writing and has your interest always been in playwriting or did that come later?
Lisa Sanaye Dring
I started off as an actor and my answer to this will answer both of your questions. I was an actor and then my mom passed away very suddenly when I was in my mid 20s and I went to Japan. I went to a lot of places but I bought a ticket to Japan the day after her funeral and I saw sumo there. I talked to a travel agent and he was like “you should see it” and I was like “oh cool” and I was just really moved. I had been around sumo wrestling on TV and stuff when I was a kid but I had never even had an interest in seeing it live and I thought it had so beautifully blended ritual and theatricality into sport and it looked at sport with a lens of devotion and I look at art with a devotional lens and so I was like “wow.” You know I felt very weirdly seen by this enterprise. And it also was connected to history, it just felt so different from any sport I had seen in America. And so I was also doing this trip where I was trying to encounter myself and my family and my roots. I was going to Japan to go to the town where my grandfather was born. And so it really meant a lot to me in that it was very strange and different than anything I had seen but it was also very known to me, in a weird way. And so, I just liked it and I still wasn’t a writer at that time I was trying to quit art making in general but two or three years later I became a writer and then I had written my first full-length play and I applied to McDowell, just being like “I want to go to McDowell” and I just wrote a page long pitch about sumo wrestling and why I think it’s amazing and why I think it would be a good play and they picked me. And so I was like “oh shit I gotta write the play“ and so that year I did, in 2019 or 2020. So it felt like in some ways I took a leap into it and in some ways the path met me.
NOR
You say you wrote the play in 2019/2020, obviously that was during COVID and everything, so what was it like writing something that is meant to be seen by an audience but was written during a time where there were no traditional audiences? Did that change how you were picturing the play and how it would end up?
Lisa Sanaye Dring
Well, COVID hit by the time it was written because I remember I found out I was a finalist for the O’Neill in April 2020. So I remember crying because when COVID shut everything down I was like I know art will go on when everything comes back but I don’t know if I’ll get to be a part if it. And this was a little beacon of like oh yeah you’re still here. And so what was great is that as a writer my work wasn’t getting productions before the pandemic anyway, I had like two productions under my belt, so I could just write and write and write and write. It’s always been an act of hope and defiance to write plays for theater because theater is always dying in some ways. It’s always fighting in the last 100 years since film has come to the fore. Theater makes no sense to do, but we always do it and we always need it. And so, thinking practically, will this get seen, I’m never doing that or I’m rarely doing that, I’m just doing it because I love theater and I love thinking and I love dreaming. Obviously, I have dreams about that but especially when you’re first writing, it makes no sense to start writing anyway. So I guess in the pandemic, it was just like I thought I was a good writer and I thought I had something to say and I was cultivating my voice and I never really thought about SUMO getting stage because I was writing this impossible thing. And even when I did think about it getting stage I thought about the low budget version as opposed to this high budget version I got. And that’s really a miracle.
NOR
What is it like writing something and then getting to see it in a physical form? Is there a certain level of separation you have to feel between what you wrote and what was eventually produced?
Lisa Sanaye Dring
I really respect that question, it comes from you as a journalist and, I’m assuming, a creative writer of creative writing, which theater is but its…I went to CalArts for a year and their MFA for creative writing thinking that theater was a part of that and they were like “no, your theater classes do not count.” I understand literary creative writing… It’s meant to be a group sport and because I started as an actor and an advisor of theater and a producer that’s how I come at it naturally, I think about it as a group sport. I workshop a lot, so SUMO got five or six workshops before the public and you learn so much by it being in an actor’s body, so yes in some ways it’s that separation but also your work is not your work on the page, the work is, in its intended form, on the stage. So it’s not like a separation of you and the work that goes up, it’s like a melding of you and the people you’re with that are creating this work. Which is very hard for boundaries, like it’s a beautiful alchemy of yourself with others. And also, sometimes you have to be like yeah that was me and that wasn’t me and both in good and bad ways. Like I directed a piece recently and the actor did all these amazing things and everyone was like “you directed it so beautifully” and I was like “nope that was them.” And sometimes when you fail you’re like “ohh the actor could’ve done this or this” but it doesn’t matter, we’re all doing it together. But I love that it’s a team sport. In theater, we need each other in the language and so I love that I need people in the making of it too.
NOR
I feel like that even lends itself to the nature of SUMO because of that emphasis on a team in a sport and seeing how that dynamic develops.
Lisa Sanaye Dring
Yeah, the individual vs collective is at the core of the piece and it’s interesting because it’s a really singular sport actually, like it’s one on one, but they live in coherence which is different than any sport I know in America. Like the way they live, it’s tribal and then they go up one on one. And there’s the Western concept of individualism versus the Eastern concept of collectivism was also in my thoughts as I wrote this.
NOR
I mean it’s such a unique thing to write a play about which leads into my question, what is it like writing and producing a play that isn’t very traditional for American audiences? Has that presented any challenges or opportunities?
Lisa Sanaye Dring
It was cool! I had to tread cautiously because I’m Japanese-American and I’m mixed so, thank god we had James Yaegashi on the play, who’s our cultural and sumo consultant and also Mariko Ohigashi who is our costume designer but from Japan and helped us culturally as well. So there’s that where you want to represent something with care and so there were continuous times I would check myself and be like “is this a colonial gaze? Do I have a colonial gaze on this?” And I think mainly no because I don’t have a colonial gaze of Japan, it’s a motherland for me, but also of course as an American, yes you do in some ways. But trying to be aware of my own hegemonic bias was real. I also think it’s neat like it’s cool to do something new. It’s harder. The fighting was such a big part of it. And also the question of comprehensibility like my director was very concerned with will the audience understand these things. So we explained a lot and that’s cool, I’m proud of that. But that wasn’t the central idea, these are all parts of it but I wanted to explore what men were doing and what a devotional practice was and what happens when you give yourself to something so fully that it changes you and the beauty of loving yourself or loving another practice or loving each other more than yourself. So although that question is valid, that wasn’t my primary lens in terms of how do I explain difference or translate difference to this community. I think that a lot of people around me were thinking about that of course you want to both invite your community in and also you don’t want to be didactic to people who already know about this, so that was the question. In the first scene, the kunnushis were basically all about translating the experience. So there were these little priests that came around and were like “here’s what this is about” and I didn’t originally have those in the play, my director asked me to put those in the play and I think it turned out pretty cool, but it’s not my first impulse. It’s hard because when you’re workshopping something for production the conversation isn’t one wayW, it’s not like oh we’re thinking about cultural context and its legibility, it’s like “does this play hit? How does it hit?” And we developed this play for four years so sometimes when you ask a specific question like that I’m like “oh yeah I do have an answer for that but it’s wrapped up in all the other concerns of the piece and all the other things I’ve thought about.” But it’s an honor. One of the important things about this piece is that it gave roles to Asian-American men and gender non-conforming people and people of size, so that was just an honor to be able to create that vehicle for people who haven’t traditionally gotten leads.
NOR
Yeah because I feel like a lot of theater is still so entrenched in a very white, skinny, certain way, which is so interesting because of how diverse theater history is.
Lisa Sanaye Dring
Yes, and there’s a lot about the hegemony of the erotic in American culture like who we deem as sexual. Like I read this book on musical theater writers that I can’t remember the name of but there was a famous quote that was like “okay the first number is everyone gets on stage and you decide who you want to have sex with and then the play can begin” and I hate that, I think that’s bullshit. But also, the politics of desire and who we deem worthy of caring eros on stage is a whole thing. It’s also like it’s a very sensual play with a lot of skin and it’s very vulnerable and I love that the play wasn’t really about that; we didn’t talk about politics of desire but it was all throughout it. Like I wanted to write a play where Asian men didn’t have to prove they were men and same with people of size, like they didn’t have to prove they were anything. They could just be their thing and keep going and have a life.
NOR
What was it like working with so many people who were so dedicated to this one thing? What is it like doing all these workshops and working with these people who have so many ideas? How do you get from one point to the next in the production of this play?
Lisa Sanaye Dring
I mean you can always choose to take or not take notes, besides your producer the people you’re paying for to take their notes. But because I was an actor and because I like communal sports, I like to hear from everybody in the room and what would work or not work for them. Not to say that I don’t have an ego but I try not to be too insecure in the room about it. I think insecurity is the reason why one wouldn’t want to hear a lot of notes and also lack of sureness in one’s self because you can hear everything and go “yes, no, yes, no” and sometimes’s I lose that way and it’s a way for me to work on my pleaser issues because my tendency is to hear if someone powerful says jump left I’m going to jump left. I’ve been blessed because the people in power were smart and also I think there were some times where I jumped left and I was like “oh I lost something” and I couldn’t tell what because I took a note that I didn’t understand. I think as a writer you have to in some ways defend the script but you don’t want to defend yourself. You don’t want to not take a note because of your feelings but you have to be able to look at the script and feel what people are saying and have your own barometer of truth and be like is that a thing that’s right or wrong. And that’s really hard because you are your script in some ways, your heart is on the page so people are talking about the way you integrate your humanity on the page. I’m learning a lot from that experience as I continue but everything is it’s own universe. Also, in terms of your prior question about energy like everyone working on it, it’s very intense and also this was one of the highest profile thing I’ve ever worked on thus far. It’s a real trip for the ego. There’s a lot of highs and there’s a lot of lows and there’s a lot of integration. And frankly, I’m grateful to be coming out the other side. I had a lot of fun; I wouldn’t trade that for the world, I love it, and also now that the first one is done I think I can be a little bit more about the work and not what this is going to mean for me. And I wish I could’ve focused a little more on the joy of being a creator in the process.
NOR
How has it been being on the other side, going from acting to working with actors?
Lisa Sanaye Dring
It’s cool, it’s a trip. I have a lot of respect for actors; I also write a lot–I know I put them through the ringer. I know the lead of SUMO was really frustrated with me because I was getting a lot of notes and I was rewriting a lot and that’s hard to memorize stuff at the very end. And also because I can memorize quickly, I want to respect everyone’s process and set them up for success while also getting the right language on the page and that’s the hardest part about it. I love making work for them, it’s such an honor because for someone to memorize your text–do you know how many hours it takes for someone to memorize a play? It’s wild! And so it’s such a beautiful gift and then they put their body and heart and soul into your play. I miss acting sometimes when I see actors in my piece and then sometimes I’m like “I could never do that, you people are gods!” And sometimes I’m like “that would make me so tired! I’m so glad I don’t have to do that.” Every play is different and I think it’s a great beauty and love and you get a lot more power as the writer in the room. I think it’s flashier to be an actor, you’re onstage and you get that energy in people but that stuff is stressful for me so although I get the high of it, it also comes with a lot of insecurity.
NOR
What would you say to your younger self/is there anything you would change about your journey to where you are now? What advice would you give to aspiring playwrights?
Lisa Sanaye Dring
For my younger self, try to love the parts of you that you don’t know yet or you don’t understand yet. The practical thing would be like “go to therapy, start working on yourself.” I meditate, it’s a huge part of my life, but truly like your soul, your mind, your body, your spirit are the vessels with which you make. And also, the things you make are just your celebration of being alive so how can you cultivate yourself to celebrate as much as possible while you’re alive. I think that I would tell myself that I have the power, it’s something I’m trying to learn even now is that the sovereignty and liberty and joy of my life is mine. Because I’ve wasted a lot of time and beautiful energy on what other people think of me and what other people can do or not do for me and that is not as liberatory as just being where I am, celebrating life, and moving through.
What advice would I give to young writers? I mean the Joseph Campbell “follow your bliss” comes to mind but I think it’s quite true. I would say if you’re just getting out of college, the way we structure our education system reflects the capitalist endeavor that we’re all in and so art is not meant to be good or bad or to perform or not to perform. I think the art I’m trying to make is to help us see outside of the binary of that and it’s so hard, even now for me, to get out of putting the rat race onto my art and onto my process and onto my creativity. And my whole intention with work is to get us to see that as dirt on the lens and that’s fine we live there, but it is hegemony, it’s an unspoken vice we’re in. So, I think that to work on one’s self and to try to free one’s self fron the constraints of the “I’ve got to succeed, I’ve got to make a living, I’ve got to do this,” and granted that stuff is all real but the more you can do to liberate yourself, you will make better and different art, even if that means not making art at the very beginning and engaging with practices to make yourself the freaky little monster you are. To individuate, basically, and the more courageously you can individuate and try to see all the socialization that we’ve encountered that can stifle our beauty, I would encourage that.
NOR
Also, I read at one point you did a clown comedy program, what was that like?
Lisa Sanaye Dring
Clown is one of the most profound spiritual and creative practices I’ve endeavored in. Like the thing about how to free yourself, clown did that for me. Even when I’m writing, even though it was a performance based art study, I think about that. One of my clown teachers said “you can’t walk a cat, you have to let the cat walk you” and it’s like you can’t tell your art what to do, you have to let your art, your unconscious, your spirit lead you. So, clown is all about losing control of what you think you are and letting people see what you actually are that’s outside of your mask. So it’s about vulnerability and play and that is at the substrate of my writing practice when I’m doing good.
Marigny Beter is an alumni of Loyola University New Orleans and is perusing a Master’s degree at the University of New Orleans. She loves writing, exploring the city, and reading.
